Wow – this page is going completely bananas on Justgiving today.
It’s a campaign to raise money for the first ever atheist bus campaign.
You might have read about it on the BBC website, the Guardian website or even The Register.
Now, Justgiving is impartial when it comes to beliefs – all of us working here have our own beliefs and feel strongly that everyone else is entitled to theirs. We’ve got all sorts of different charities raising money through our website.
But this page is remarkable for the sheer speed that it’s raising money – we’ve been noticing that there are new donations every time we refresh the page. Whatever you believe, it certainly shows the power of online fundraising. The campaign has not only smashed its target for the British Humanist Association but it’s gone from trebling the target to quadrupling it in the time spent writing this blog post…
Amazing.
Here’s how those donations look on a graph (we like graphs here), and it shows just how hundreds of donations have come through the page in a very short space of time, starting at midnight last night:
ourmanwhere said
Congratulations. I love the idea and it shows that us Athiests have a massive voice and we’ve probably kept quiet too long.
Politicians in particular should be aware that we’re far more impressed by clear thinking than we are by the professed depth of your religious beliefs.
jj100172 said
What a waste of money!
Aetheists are entitled to their beliefs.
But to sponsor a bus:
couldn’t they do something to relieve poverty or something like that?
(Like a lot of Christians do – Christians run some of the biggest aid projects in the world, eg. World Vivion, Tear Fund, etc).
I must find that great quote from Roy Hattersley about aetheists post Hurricane Katrina (he is not a Christian himself):
basically it was all Christians doing the work, not many devout aetheists………..
jj100172 said
Here we are:
“Faith does breed charity
We atheists have to accept that most believers are better human beings
* Roy Hattersley
*
o Roy Hattersley
o The Guardian,
o Monday September 12 2005
Hurricane Katrina did not stay on the front pages for long. Yesterday’s Red Cross appeal for an extra 40,000 volunteer workers was virtually ignored.
…
Notable by their absence are teams from rationalist societies, free thinkers’ clubs and atheists’ associations – the sort of people who not only scoff at religion’s intellectual absurdity but also regard it as a positive force for evil.
…
Last week a middle-ranking officer of the Salvation Army, who gave up a well-paid job to devote his life to the poor, attempted to convince me that homosexuality is a mortal sin.
Late at night, on the streets of one of our great cities, that man offers friendship as well as help to the most degraded and (to those of a censorious turn of mind) degenerate human beings who exist just outside the boundaries of our society. And he does what he believes to be his Christian duty without the slightest suggestion of disapproval. Yet, for much of his time, he is meeting needs that result from conduct he regards as intrinsically wicked.
Civilised people do not believe that drug addiction and male prostitution offend against divine ordinance. But those who do are the men and women most willing to change the fetid bandages, replace the sodden sleeping bags and – probably most difficult of all – argue, without a trace of impatience, that the time has come for some serious medical treatment. Good works, John Wesley insisted, are no guarantee of a place in heaven. But they are most likely to be performed by people who believe that heaven exists.
Powerful stuff…………
Out of the mouth of (spiritual) babes………
misstheboat said
Oh, please, jj. Are you seriously suggesting that atheists can not, do not or will not act charitably? Are you honestly quoting one man’s opinion as fact? I am an atheist and I certainly don’t begrudge anyone their right to believe in any religious system. But this is in response to the alpha course adverts that run on buses. Maybe instead of running Alpha courses, or paying to run Alpha course adverts, or adding to the church collection box, Christians should give that money and time to charity instead?
Of course they shouldn’t, that’s their right. And it’s our right to pay to express our opinions (and engage in non-theistic charity work).
matt7895 said
Atheists don’t have beliefs. That’s the whole point of being an atheist. We leave all that superstitious mumbojumbo behind.
Atheism is a religion/belief system the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.
As for your assertion that one must have an imaginary friend to do charitable acts, show me a charitable action undertaken by someone with an imaginary friend, that could not have been undertaken by an atheist.
Anglican Mainstream » Blog Archive » Get off the bus - ‘there is no God’ said
[...] Richard Dawkins is helping fund a campaign by the British Humanist Association to persuade people that God does not exist. Posters are to be placed on 30 bendy buses in London in January with the slogan: ‘There’s probably no God. So stop worrying and enjoy your life.’ The campaign is the idea of comedy writer Ariane Sherine, who suggested it on a blog after hearing about a Christian campaign promoting the concept of everlasting flames in hell for unbelievers. The Atheist Bus Campaign will come shortly after the annual church campaign promoting Christianity during the festive Christmas season. My colleague Adam Sherwin broke the story first in The Times. As Ekklesia reports, the Methodists were among the first to welcome this. Read more about it on the JustGiving blog. [...]
lurkalot said
jj100172, please! this is the same one sided clap trap that is typical of religious thinking. The Christian Church has spent centuries ammassing huge wealth for itself. I don’t see the archbishops selling off their properties or chattels to help the poor, or the pope giving away the fortunes of the Vatican bank.
Atheists are at least as charitable as people of religion, probably more so as we value respect for life above all. But when a few like minded folk gather together to put forward a message of reason and enlightenment to oppose messages of superstition and hate it is seen as self serving and fatuous.
This is a great campaign and I am glad to support it along side my sponsorship of a child in Armenia and my continued fund raising for Aplastic Anaemia research in the UK.
“I think therefore I am an atheist”
christdied4u said
The ad is underselling what it claims to believe. If this is to be atheism’s stand, then it has got to categorically state there is DEFINITELY no God. Not PROBABLY.
So guys, let your yes mean yes or your no mean no. Not this lukewarm, halfhearted and somewhat unsure stance. What a waste of money just to make a point and one that falls short at that.
I am a follower of Christ and I know which side on the fence I am on. I expect the same of an atheist. I don’t need an ad to market atheism I experience it every single day.
For the creator of this ad who is clearly PROBABLY not sure I would like to invite him/her to listen to these two guys. The link below has two videos to watch about Atheism and Evolution. They may just help you decide for sure. Please listen carefully to what Darwin has to say. I think you will be very surprised.
http://www.wayofthemaster.com/evolution.shtml
El Destino del Iscariote » Spread the word said
[...] de Richard Dawkins. ¿Cuánto de asombroso? Bueno, tanto como para que la plataforma usada, justgiving.com, haya publicado una entrada sobre el tema en su blog corporativo, con un gráfico de donaciones que [...]
Spread the word said
[...] de Richard Dawkins. ¿Cuánto de asombroso? Bueno, tanto como para que la plataforma usada, justgiving.com, haya publicado una entrada sobre el tema en su blog corporativo, con un gráfico de donaciones que [...]
ourmanwhere said
Just to add to that. I am a volunteer worker in Cameroon. (click the lick for my blog). I work for a non religious AIDS organisation.
Last week we were hosting a workshop for local villagers as part of our ongoing commitment to treat people living with HIV and AIDS in local villagers.
In the centre we were using there was a also a party of priests.
When it came to lunch we ate our meagre but satisfactory buffet that our budget allowed. We sat among the local, sometimes very skinny, villagers.
At the next table, tucking into a huge spread were the (almost to a man) overweight priests. Their spread was twice the size of ours and although it was lunch time they had plenty of bottles of red wine too. Nice wine as well.
No, they shared nothing.
lurkalot said
christdied4u, you should take the time to read and learn before you spout this nonsense.
The PROBABLY is a joke on the advertising industry, it is taken from the Carlsberg adverts that allows any statement to be made without incurring the wrath of the ASA. It has nothing to do with my or other rational peoples understanding of the universe.
I suggest you read the original article here …
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/20/transport.religion
But i doubt that will change your narrow view of the world. As Dawkins said, thought is anathema to religion.
“I think therefore i am an atheist”
davidb81 said
To add to lurkalot’s response to the uninformed christdied4u, the ‘probably’ is also a reference to Dawkins’ 1-7 sliding scale of belief, where 1 is “there is definitely a God” and 7 is “there is definitely not a god”. Whereas most religious people would consider themselves to be “1″s due to their blind faith, even Dawkins himself accepts that he cannot be a “7″ as there is no scientific proof that there is no god. He therefore puts himself as a “6″ – he believes that there probably is no god, but cannot be sure. I agree with him.
Blog of Change » The Atheist Bus: The Sparks that Set the Fire (or a first reckoning) said
[...] amazing lightning success of the Atheist Bus Campaign (read my post, and post on the speed of donations by justgiving), which has so far collected £58,000 in a day and a half and keeps going up, requires some [...]
The Atheist Bus: The Sparks that Set the Fire (or a first reckoning) at Alejandro@Oxford said
[...] amazing lightning success of the Atheist Bus Campaign (read my post, and post on the speed of donations by justgiving – graph underneath), which has so far collected £58,000 in a day and a half and keeps going up, [...]
Matt Knight » Blog Archive » Atheist Bus Campaign said
[...] I saw this on the BBC News website yesterday, and thought it was a really interesting idea. After reading a bit of the background to it on Cif I decided to check out the donations page at http://www.justgiving.com/atheistbus and the blog post on their website. [...]
matt7895 said
Agreed. As much as the religious like to say, ‘Atheists have just as much faith/they say there is definitely no god’, we DON’T say that. We say god is just as unlikely as fairies, leprechauns and unicorns. Nobody can categorically state unicorns don’t exist, but it is very UNLIKELY that such things do.
If only more of the religious followed the commandments of their holy book (i.e. thou shalt not lie, thou shalt not bear false witness).
ATHEIST BUS: TELLING GOD WHERE TO GET OFF « vencentral.com said
[...] a campaign that is now well and truly viral, the voices of ordinary society are repelling the encroachment of Western elite-branded [...]
Atheist Bus - Some Cheeky Insider Insights | bloggett by Simon Doggett said
[...] ‘Atheist Bus’ has dominated my working day since launch on tuesday morning. We’re in the enviable hotseat where we can see where all the traffic is coming from, with our all our awesome dashboards of win. Here’s a couple of interesting tidbits I thought were worth sharing: [...]
Atheist Campaign » Thanks to the bloggers said
[...] Justgiving Blog [...]
christdied4u said
As uninformed as I am, the definition of the atheism is as follows:
a·the·ism /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-thee-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Forgive me. There is no room for PROBABLY. There are no grey areas. Once again I say, let your yes mean yes or your no mean no, regardless of the ASA or where Dawkins places himself on the sliding scale. The ad should go the whole 9 yards or it becomes an ineffective message. Either God exists or he doesn’t. Denying the existence of God is an atheist’s prerogative but it is no joking matter.
Out of respect I read the link you posted and I trust you took the time to investigate the link I posted also?
bitbutter said
christdied4u:
“2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Forgive me. There is no room for PROBABLY.”
If you buy a lottery ticket do you believe you will win the jackpot? I’m assuming you normally wouldn’t hold that belief. Would you say with absolute certainty that you _won’t_ win the jackpot? You’d be silly if you did. So you might say that you probably* won’t win the jackpot, while not having a positive belief that you will win the jackpot. It’s pretty simple.
The same applies for the idea of God here.
*Of course ‘probably’ is a bit of an understatement, and i think many people who donated would say that ‘almost certainly’ is a better fit. But probably works well in a slogan for reasons already discussed.
“The ad should go the whole 9 yards or it becomes an ineffective message.”
Thanks for offering your opinion. But I think you have it exactly back-to-front.
PS. Denying the divinity of Thor (as all Christians implicitly do) is your prerogative but it is no joking matter. I hope you thought long and hard before you did that.
jj100172 said
I don’t deny that aetheists do give money to charity.
But added up, there is a lot more practical charity done by Christians of all shades down the centuries than ever there has been done by aetheists.
There are books on this.
A short version can be found here:
http://www.bizzyblog.com/2005/12/25/what-if-christmas-never-happened-d-james-kennedys-classic-essay/
All I can say is: aetheists have a lot of faith to believe that a very complicated world like ours can exist without a Designer. A awful lot of faith.
But let me help you:
The Atheist Starter Kit
If you are a beginner atheist, there’s a belief system you should embrace and a language you should learn, or you will find yourself in trouble. Here are ten suggestions for the novice:
1. Whenever you are presented with credible evidence for God’s existence, call it a “straw man argument,” or “circular reasoning.” If something is quoted from somewhere, label it “quote mining.”
2. When a Christian says that creation proves that there is a Creator, dismiss such common sense by saying “That’s just the old watchmaker argument.”
3. When you hear that you have everything to gain and nothing to lose (the pleasures of Heaven, and the endurance of Hell) by obeying the Gospel, say “That’s just the old ‘Pascal wager.’”
4. You can also deal with the “whoever looks on a woman to lust for her, has committed adultery with her already in his heart,” by saying that there is no evidence that Jesus existed. None.
5. Believe that the Bible is full of mistakes, and actually says things like the world is flat. Do not read it for yourself. That is a big mistake. Instead, read, believe, and imitate Richard Dawkins. Learn and practice the use of big words. “Megalo-maniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully” is a good phrase to learn.
6. Say that you were once a genuine Christian, and that you found it to be false. (The cool thing about being an atheist is that you can lie through your teeth, because you believe that are no moral absolutes.) Additionally, if a Christian points out that this is impossible (simply due to the very definition of Christianity as one who knows the Lord), just reply “That’s the ‘no true Scotsman fallacy.’” PLEASE NOTE: It cannot be overly emphasized how learning and using these little phrases can help you feel secure in dismissing common sense.
7. Believe that nothing is 100% certain, except the theory of Darwinian evolution. Do not question it. Believe with all of your heart that there is credible scientific evidence for species-to-species transitional forms. When you make any argument, pat yourself on the back by concluding with “Man, are you busted!” That will make you feel good about yourself.
8. Deal with the threat of eternal punishment by saying that you don’t believe in the existence of Hell. Then convince yourself that because you don’t believe in something, it therefore doesn’t exist. Don’t follow that logic onto a railway line and an oncoming train.
9. Blame Christianity for the atrocities of the Roman Catholic church–when it tortured Christians through the Spanish Inquisition, imprisoned Galileo for his beliefs, or when it murdered Moslems in the Crusades.
10. Finally, keep in fellowship with other like-minded atheists who believe as you believe, and encourage each other in your beliefs. Build up your faith. Never doubt for a moment. Remember, the key to atheism is to be unreasonable. Fall back on that when you feel threatened. Think shallow, and keep telling yourself that you are intelligent. Remember, an atheist is someone who pretends there is no God.
bitbutter said
My word jj100172! If we didn’t know that you imagine that Creator of the universe is on your side, it’d almost look like the prospect of atheists making themselves heard has you a little unsettled.
ozoid said
jj100172 said,
“I don’t deny that aetheists do give money to charity.
But added up, there is a lot more practical charity done by Christians of all shades down the centuries than ever there has been done by aetheists.”
OOOOOOOOH
Do you really want to say such inflaming comments on an Atheist Bus Blog here is just one reply…
More Death Destruction Disease and war has been caused by Religion than any other cause – and by mostly christians.
Atheists are not counted- most of the time we are just the ones not at church.
i will stop now before my blood boils any further and i start an even bigger war.
ozoid said
If everyone stopped beliving that they are the ones that are right and accepted others for who they are and not what they believe, then we would all be better people.
I hate religion and maybe atheism too, for causing us all to be different and think differently.
Grow up and accept your fellow man/woman – dont push your belief onto others.
Believing is fine – thinking others should believe too is WRONG.
A point of view is fine – thinking others should think your way is WRONG.
These are the beginnings of war – and the contents of most of our history.
The end of the world is more nigh today than it was yesterday – make the most of it and Live your life whilst leaving others to live theirs.
see i said i should have stopped.
Love to everyone
Lone Wolf said
jj: simply do a google search and you will find there are atheist charity’s. Atheist give just as much as theists, there are just less of us and the news media would never talk about atheist charity’s cause of they would be afraid of offending there religious audience.
christdied4u: Atheism is not a belief system, its a spectrum, on one end you have week atheist (the lack of a belief in a god or gods but does not believe that a god or gods does not or can not exist) on the other side you got strong atheism (the belief that a god or gods do not exist). Most atheists are some where in the middle, I don’t believe that anything that fits ant definition of the word “god” exists and some gods and that some god concepts can be falsified while others can’t.
And the word “god” it self is vague, some (like polytheists) may say a god is a powerful super natural bing while others would see a god as simply the creator of the universe and no necessarily supernatural (like deists) while others may see a god as an omnipotent omniscient bing while others may define “god” as a particular god. So even theism and atheism are not mutually exclusive.
lurkalot said
To bitbutter, well said, i can only assume jj’s faith is so weak that us free thinkers scare the life out of him/her?
To JJ, thanks for the advice jj but to be honest I don’t need life rules based on preaching or scripture, I allow my mind to explore all the puzzles of life and base my conclusions on evidence and understanding, not on a few old stories and myths. I think you should ask yourself why you need to defend your faith so vehemently, are you having doubts? who are you trying to convince? yourself or the rest of us?
“I think therefore I am an Atheist”
ngoldfarb said
here is more on how the liberals like to shape our thinking re tradional values
http://ngoldfarb.wordpress.com
PatJe.de » Spendenrekord said
[...] in der britischen Bevölkerung geweckt. Mehr zu der Aktion im Kampagne 2.0 Blog und im Blog von JustGiving, dem [...]
christdied4u said
And so we can all go round in circles.
I just hope this ad campaign can justify the money being spent.
I organised a fund raiser a few years ago. The £30,000 we collected paid for a the building and furnishing of nursery unit in an orphanage for aids kids in Northern Thailand and we also provided an educational establishment with the resources they needed for the street kids in Pattaya to keep them away from prostitution gangs.
bobrayner said
christdied4u,
That’s nice. I’m glad to see that other fellow humans try to do nice things for each other.
Did you feel like a good christian whilst undoing some of the horrible suffering inflicted and permitted by your omnipotent sky-fairy?
Anglican Mainstream South Africa » Blog Archive » Get off the bus - ‘there is no God’ AND a godly reponse! said
[...] Richard Dawkins is helping fund a campaign by the British Humanist Association to persuade people that God does not exist. Posters are to be placed on 30 bendy buses in London in January with the slogan: ‘There’s probably no God. So stop worrying and enjoy your life.’ The campaign is the idea of comedy writer Ariane Sherine, who suggested it on a blog after hearing about a Christian campaign promoting the concept of everlasting flames in hell for unbelievers. The Atheist Bus Campaign will come shortly after the annual church campaign promoting Christianity during the festive Christmas season. My colleague Adam Sherwin broke the story first in The Times. As Ekklesia reports, the Methodists were among the first to welcome this. Read more about it on the JustGiving blog. [...]
davidb81 said
jj, let me address some of the misconceptions in your 10 point guide for novice athiests.
1. Whenever you are presented with credible evidence for God’s existence, call it a “straw man argument,” or “circular reasoning.” If something is quoted from somewhere, label it “quote mining.”
NONE OF THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED IN FAVOUR OF GOD’S EXISTENCE IS CREDIBLE WHEN ANALYSED IN A RATIONAL AND SCIENTIFIC MANNER. ONLY BY APPLYING CIRCULAR REASONING OR MAKING A LEAP OF FAITH CAN ANYONE POSSIBLY REACH THE CONCLUSION THAT ANY SUCH EVIDENCE IS CREDIBLE. ATHIESTS REFUSE TO REASON IN THIS WAY.
2. When a Christian says that creation proves that there is a Creator, dismiss such common sense by saying “That’s just the old watchmaker argument.”
THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE TYPE OF CIRCULAR REASONING I REFER TO ABOVE.
3. When you hear that you have everything to gain and nothing to lose (the pleasures of Heaven, and the endurance of Hell) by obeying the Gospel, say “That’s just the old ‘Pascal wager.’”
IF GOD IS AS OMNIPRESENT AS YOU BELIEVE, WOULD HE NOT SEE THROUGH ANYONE WHO OBEYED THE GOSPEL JUST ON THE OFF CHANCE THAT HELL DOES EXIST?
4. You can also deal with the “whoever looks on a woman to lust for her, has committed adultery with her already in his heart,” by saying that there is no evidence that Jesus existed. None.
I DON’T THINK THAT MANY ATHIESTS WOULD DISPUTE THE EXISTENCE OF CHRIST AS AN HISTORICAL FIGURE. WHAT THEY TAKE ISSUE WITH ARE THE SUGGESTIONS THAT HE WAS BORN TO A VIRGIN, TURNED WATER INTO WINE AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD. IN MY VIEW, IT’S NOT UNREASONABLE TO ASK FOR EVIDENCE FOR THESE EVENTS MORE CREDIBLE THAN GOSPELS WRITTEN MANY YEARS AFTER THE TIME AT WHICH THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE TAKEN PLACE.
5. Believe that the Bible is full of mistakes, and actually says things like the world is flat. Do not read it for yourself. That is a big mistake. Instead, read, believe, and imitate Richard Dawkins. Learn and practice the use of big words. “Megalo-maniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully” is a good phrase to learn.
PERHAPS IT WOULD ALSO DO YOU SOME GOOD TO READ THE WHOLE OF THE BIBLE AND NOT JUST CHERRY PICK TO AVOID EXTRACTS WHERE GOD CAN, IN FACT, BE ACCURATELY DESCRIBED BY DAWKINS’ BIG WORDS.
6. Say that you were once a genuine Christian, and that you found it to be false. (The cool thing about being an atheist is that you can lie through your teeth, because you believe that are no moral absolutes.) Additionally, if a Christian points out that this is impossible (simply due to the very definition of Christianity as one who knows the Lord), just reply “That’s the ‘no true Scotsman fallacy.’” PLEASE NOTE: It cannot be overly emphasized how learning and using these little phrases can help you feel secure in dismissing common sense.
PERSONALLY, I WAS NEVER A GENUINE CHRISTIAN. TO SUGGEST THAT ATHIESTS CANNOT LIVE BY A SET OF MORAL ABSOLUTES IS, QUITE FRANKLY, BONKERS.
7. Believe that nothing is 100% certain, except the theory of Darwinian evolution. Do not question it. Believe with all of your heart that there is credible scientific evidence for species-to-species transitional forms. When you make any argument, pat yourself on the back by concluding with “Man, are you busted!” That will make you feel good about yourself.
NO ATHIEST WOULD SAY THAT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IS 100% CERTAIN. ATHIESTS DO QUESTION THE THEORY, WHICH HAS BEEN SUBJECTED TO RIGOROUS SCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS, AND GENERALLY REACH THE CONCLUSION THAT IT IS EXTREMELY LIKELY TO BE CORRECT, AND FAR MORE LIKELY THAN ANY OF THE ALTERNATIVES.
8. Deal with the threat of eternal punishment by saying that you don’t believe in the existence of Hell. Then convince yourself that because you don’t believe in something, it therefore doesn’t exist. Don’t follow that logic onto a railway line and an oncoming train.
I DON’T BELIEVE IN THE EXISTENCE OF HELL (DUE TO THE LACK OF EVIDENCE). BUT I DON’T NEED THE THREAT OF ETERNAL DAMNATION HANGING OVER ME TO MAKE ME LIVE MY LIFE IN A WAY THAT WOULD BE GENERALLY CONSIDERED TO BE MORALLY ACCEPTABLE. DO YOU?
9. Blame Christianity for the atrocities of the Roman Catholic church–when it tortured Christians through the Spanish Inquisition, imprisoned Galileo for his beliefs, or when it murdered Moslems in the Crusades.
DIFFICULT TO PICK FAULT WITH THIS ONE. AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER EXAMPLES YOU COULD HAVE CHOSEN FOR CHRISTIANITY AND OTHER RELIGIONS.
10. Finally, keep in fellowship with other like-minded atheists who believe as you believe, and encourage each other in your beliefs. Build up your faith. Never doubt for a moment. Remember, the key to atheism is to be unreasonable. Fall back on that when you feel threatened. Think shallow, and keep telling yourself that you are intelligent. Remember, an atheist is someone who pretends there is no God.
THE WORDS ‘POT’, ‘KETTLE’ AND ‘BLACK’ SPRING TO MIND. ENOUGH SAID.
davidb81 said
Also, in response to christdied4u, there is actually all the room in the world for ‘probably’. You are right that God either exists or he doesn’t, but it is a non sequitur to say that someone should not be able to hold the view that he probably doesn’t exist or probably does exist. My interpretation of the available evidence is that it suggests that there is no God. However, there is no definitive proof of this and so logically I take the view that God probably does not exist.
Presumably, you interpret the available evidence differently and somehow have come to the conclusion that God definitely exists. To reach this conclusion either:
(1) You interpret the evidence itself as conclusive proof of God’s existence; or
(2) You interpret the evidence as suggesting that God probably exists and then rely on faith to bridge the gap between ‘probably’ and ‘definitely’.
Assuming you take the latter view (I would, of course, be interested to hear about your conclusive proof if you take the first!), then there are two major differences between our positions:
(A) Our interpretations of the available evidence; and
((B) Your reliance on faith.
My rationality prevents me from relying on ‘faith’ in the same way that you do to get me from ‘probably’ to ‘definitely’ and so I have to say that God probably does not exist.
There is probably no god, now stop worrying and enjoy life « Aphra Behn - danger of eclectic shock said
[...] PS – I’ve just found the graph of the giving figures from Just Giving’s very own blog right here on WordPress. They like graphs, and so do I, so here it [...]
christdied4u said
No Bob,
My role was to get things organised. The sum was raised by a bunch of six and seven year olds who went out and made a difference. And the Lord truly blessed their efforts. Thank you.
Sir, I don’t appreciate your sarcasm, but I do pray a blessing upon your life.
David, if I said to you – ‘there probably is a God, who probably sent his son to die for me, so that I might probably be forgiven for being unable to live according to God’s standards’ then my statement as a theist is weak, ineffective and lukewarm.
Which brings me back to the ad which is weak, ineffective and frankly lacks guts. I just wish it would say there is no God and be done with it.
PROBABLY… seems to me that belongs to the definition of an Agnostic. Not an Atheist. I may be wrong.
I once thought the Bible was a fairy tale. Man made and no way inspired by God. I did not believe in the existence of God not even the Sky Fairy Bob.
Science has since convinced me that the Bible is an authentic historical document. An ancient text can be tested for it’s authenticity by the number of documents produced over a period of time. Basically, the more documents produced over a shorter time period, the more authentic the document.
New Testiment in Comparison with other Books
It is worth comparing the manuscript witnesses to the text of the Bible with the manuscript witnesses to the text of other ancient books. The following table contains details of some ancient works.
Work When Written Earliest Copy Time Span Copies
Caesar’s Gallic Wars 100-44 BC 900 AD 1,000 yrs 10
Plato’s Tetralogies 427-347 BC 900 AD 1,200 yrs 7
Tacitus’ Annals 100 AD 1100 AD 1,000 yrs 20
Pliny’s Histories 61-113 AD 850 AD 750 yrs 7
Herodotus’ History 480-425 BC 900 AD 1,300 yrs 8
New Testament 40-70 AD 180 AD 120 yrs 24,000
In spite of the superior numbers of Biblical manuscripts and the closeness of these manuscripts to the original writing of the Bible, no-one seriously questions the text of the other works.
So, I had to accept, that the Bible was a historical document.
I believe Alexander the great was a historical figure. As a child I actually believed that he existed because the history books said so. I did not believe in Christ because the Bible at the time was no more than a fairy tale to me. A nice story to tell at Christmas time.
But now that I had to accept that the Bible was at it’s very least, a historical document. Whether I liked it or not I had to confront this man Jesus. Did He or did He not exist?
I wanted “proof” outside of the bible.
The “proof” for the existence of Christ can be found in three main sources. The argument for the existence of Jesus is strengthened because the person of Jesus Christ is mentioned by independent Christian, Jewish, and Roman sources. Obviously the person of Jesus is mentioned quite thoroughly in the New Testament and other early Christian writings but Jesus is also mentioned by the Jewish historian Josephus. The fact that Josephus, a practicing Jew and a man who was not actively involved Christian circles and not part of the early church mentions the existence of Jesus of Nazareth in his writings definitely gives credence to the argument for the existence of Jesus Christ. In turn, another of the most credible arguments for the existence of Jesus Christ are the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus. Tacitus was a Roman historian who also mentioned the existence of the crucifixion of Jesus in his writings. In turn, the writings of Tacitus are viewed by historians as crucial to not only understanding early Middle Eastern history but also what we know of early Germanic tribes in Europe. In essence, while the divinity of Jesus is not something that can be proven historically, the historical community is quite sure that a person named Jesus did live in the Middle East two thousand years ago and can look to independent historical sources to strengthen their argument.
Josephus was a Pharisee who as you know were very anti Christian. Paul (formerly Saul) was a Pharisee and he hunted them down and killed them.
You can read for yourself here where Josephus mentions in his work Ancient Antiquities the brother of Jesus who was called Christ.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U06oqM41ZLgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:Flavius+inauthor:Josephus#PPA877,M1
Another historian Tacitus mentions Jesus and the Christians in an account of how the Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome’s fire of 64 AD:
“But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind”.
I had my proof. I had to accept the Christ walked this earth.
I had to face the final confrontation – He is either who He says He is. Or He is a liar. Or He is lunatic. What He was not, was simply a wise and good man.
So I read the bible. I read the New Testiment. I searched and searched. I found that Jesus had fulfilled over 300 prophesies. Events that were written hundreds of years before His birth and events that He could not clearly have control of e.g where He would be born. How He would die….
You can find more prophesies here:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html
The evidence kept stacking up. If you haven’t found yet, then it could be that you are not searching.
I came to a decision through a rational process and not a leap of blind faith as many would believe.
Let me ask you something. If you subscribe to the notion of evolution can you please explain the missing link?
David said
Let Atheists be Atheists and let Christians be Christians. There is no reason to argue. Sure as a Christian I will evangelize but probably not the way you think. If you don’t want anything to do with Jesus, that’s fine. I am not going to beg you to believe in Him when He didn’t beg anyone to follow Him.
http://yurodivi.wordpress.com/author/amandave814/
christdied4u said
No Bob,
My role was to get things organised. The sum was raised by a bunch of six and seven year olds who went out and made a difference. And the Lord truly blessed their efforts. Thank you.
Sir, I don’t appreciate your sarcasm, but I do pray a blessing upon your life.
David, if I said to you – ‘there probably is a God, who probably sent his son to die for me, so that I might probably be forgiven for being unable to live according to God’s standards’ then my statement as a theist is weak, ineffective and lukewarm.
Which brings me back to the ad which is weak, ineffective and frankly lacks guts. I just wish it would say there is no God and be done with it.
PROBABLY… seems to me that it belongs to the definition of an Agnostic. Not an Atheist. I may be wrong.
I once thought the Bible was a fairy tale. Man made and no way inspired by God. I did not believe in the existence of God not even the Sky Fairy Bob.
Science has since convinced me that the Bible is an authentic historical document. An ancient text can be tested for it’s authenticity by the number of documents produced over a period of time. Basically, the more documents produced over a shorter time period, the more authentic the document.
New Testiment in Comparison with other Books
It is worth comparing the manuscript witnesses to the text of the Bible with the manuscript witnesses to the text of other ancient books. The following table contains details of some ancient works.
Work When Written Earliest Copy Time Span Copies
Caesar’s Gallic Wars 100-44 BC 900 AD 1,000 yrs 10
Plato’s Tetralogies 427-347 BC 900 AD 1,200 yrs 7
Tacitus’ Annals 100 AD 1100 AD 1,000 yrs 20
Pliny’s Histories 61-113 AD 850 AD 750 yrs 7
Herodotus’ History 480-425 BC 900 AD 1,300 yrs 8
New Testament 40-70 AD 180 AD 120 yrs 24,000
In spite of the superior numbers of Biblical manuscripts and the closeness of these manuscripts to the original writing of the Bible, no-one seriously questions the text of the other works.
So, I had to accept, that the Bible was a historical document.
I believe Alexander the great was a historical figure. As a child I actually believed that he existed because the history books said so. I did not believe in Christ because the Bible at the time was no more than a fairy tale to me. A nice story to tell at Christmas time.
But now that I had to accept that the Bible was at it’s very least, a historical document. Whether I liked it or not I had to confront this man Jesus. Did He or did He not exist?
I wanted “proof” outside of the bible.
The “proof” for the existence of Christ can be found in three main sources. The argument for the existence of Jesus is strengthened because the person of Jesus Christ is mentioned by independent Christian, Jewish, and Roman sources. Obviously the person of Jesus is mentioned quite thoroughly in the New Testament and other early Christian writings but Jesus is also mentioned by the Jewish historian Josephus. The fact that Josephus, a practicing Jew and a man who was not actively involved Christian circles and not part of the early church mentions the existence of Jesus of Nazareth in his writings definitely gives credence to the argument for the existence of Jesus Christ. In turn, another of the most credible arguments for the existence of Jesus Christ are the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus. Tacitus was a Roman historian who also mentioned the existence of the crucifixion of Jesus in his writings. In turn, the writings of Tacitus are viewed by historians as crucial to not only understanding early Middle Eastern history but also what we know of early Germanic tribes in Europe. In essence, while the divinity of Jesus is not something that can be proven historically, the historical community is quite sure that a person named Jesus did live in the Middle East two thousand years ago and can look to independent historical sources to strengthen their argument.
Josephus was a Pharisee who as you know were very anti Christian. Paul (formerly Saul) was a Pharisee and he hunted them down and killed them.
You can read for yourself here where Josephus mentions in his work Ancient Antiquities the brother of Jesus who was called Christ.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U06oqM41ZLgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:Flavius+inauthor:Josephus#PPA877,M1
Another historian Tacitus mentions Jesus and the Christians in an account of how the Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome’s fire of 64 AD:
“But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind”.
I had my proof. I had to accept the Christ walked this earth.
I had to face the final confrontation – He is either who He says He is. Or He is a liar. Or He is lunatic. What He was not, was simply a wise and good man.
So I read the bible. I read the New Testiment. I searched and searched. I found that Jesus had fulfilled over 300 prophesies. Events that were written hundreds of years before His birth and events that He could not clearly have control of e.g where He would be born. How He would die….
You can find more prophesies here:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html
The evidence kept stacking up. If you haven’t found it yet, then it could be that you are not searching.
I came to a decision through a rational process and not a leap of blind faith as many would believe.
Let me ask you something. If you subscribe to the notion of evolution can you please explain the missing link?
Please take a look at the post from Anglican Mainstream – excellent article
lurkalot said
Christdied4u: You (and your like) are the exact reason the atheist bus campaign has raised nearly 100K, We, the rational humans of this planet, are fed up with hearing you spout your self serving, self righteous, superior and mostly vacuous relig-o-babble.
If you kept your myth worship to yourself there would be no need to have to counter your superstition with rational and humanistic massages.
Having read your messages I shall immediately donate another £20 to the campaign.
“I think therefore I am an Atheist”
agnosticnick said
Christdied4u:
You completely miss the point.
You spend the majority of your post making a well reasoned argument proving the existence of Jesus as a historical figure. Unfortunately the vast majority of people (Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Jew, Muslim etc) will not deny his historic existence any more than you or they would deny the historic existence of Emperor Nero, Mohammed, Gandhi, or any other prominent figure from history. Nor will they necessarily disagree with you about what he said. Most people will disagree with you over who he was. Namely, that he was not Divine.
Likewise, you spend your time proving the historic existence of the New Testament. Agsin most people will not disagree with when the components of the New Testament were written and by whom, and that it is an ‘historic document’ in the sense that it is ‘from history’ any more than they would question the writing of the ‘Qur’an’ or ‘Harry Potter’. Most people will not however accept that it is ‘proof’ of Jesus’s divinity as it was compiled (from a long-list of potential gospels and other source materials, no less) by Christians – hardly impartial historians on this subject.
It is symptomatic of many theological arguments along this line to equate ‘proof’ of Jesus’s existence with ‘proof’ of his divinity. Essentially, the only proof of Jesus’s Divinity that you have offered us are the words of his followers.
It is a shame that you obviously spent so much of your time (life?) proving to yourself that Jesus existed rather than proving to yourself that he was divine.
“I think therefore I am an Atheist”
Atheist Bus Campaign « Oz Atheist’s Weblog said
[...] the Just Giving site which is hosting the fund raising is amazed how fast the donations came flooding [...]
christdied4u said
I see nothing rational about raising 100k just to make a point when it could be better spent on those who really need it.
Differences aside, a £20 donation will sponsor a mere fraction of a letter. For almost 10 years, I have lived in places where that same money could feed a family for a month. This campaign could feed 416 families for an entire year and probably even more than that. If this is the act of a humanist movement then I fail to see the logic in it.
Please stop patronising and resorting to mockery, sarcasm, assumption and distortion. It simply reveals the true condition of the heart.
I sincerely respect an atheist’s stance. My criticism of the ad campaign is simply this. It does not fall inline with the definition of an atheist. This ad falls into the definition of an agnostic perhaps. But an atheist?…No.
Then, we digressed, and when challenged, I have attempted to explain my belief in a way that an atheist would appreciate i.e. my own logical and rational thought, based on the evidence available to me. As a former atheist, I know only too well that you will only respect the evidence.
I have attempted to point out the authenticity of the bible. As you so rightly agree, Christ is as the very least a historical figure. So far, no one has even begun to reply in a rational way, what led them to their decision to be an atheist.
After that, the only further evidence I can reveal relating to his divinity lies in the Bible or perhaps a personal encounter with Christ. I doubt very much an atheist would subscribe to this.
But at the end of the day, it comes to this. He is either who He says He is, or He is a liar or He is a lunatic. You choose. But before you dismiss Him, I would encourage to search and you will find.
As a former atheist, I would mention everything that you have already said. Now that I am on the “other side” I am spouting nonsense. Ah well. Clearly you are all highly intelligent and I am just a child. A fool for Christ. But I would rather be a fool for Christ any day.
As a former atheist and therefore a highly intelligent person, I believed in evolution. Where on earth is the link between apes and humans? Otherwise, known as the missing link. It doesn’t exist. And yet, many fix their belief based on this. That is blind faith.
We all have a date with death. We can choose in the here and now how we spend the rest of eternity. Good works and good deeds which are to be admired will not put you in right standing with God Almighty.
Evil came into this world and for now it remains. Don’t believe me? Just turn on the TV, read the newspaper, listen to the radio. And here is the good news. It’s going to get worse.
There is still time. But there is only one way. Jesus was sent to this world to restore our relationship with God. He lived the perfect life. He paid the price. God will not accept how good you were. But He will accept you, if you accepted His Son.
He will deny you, if you also deny His Son.
I can not see the air around me but that does not mean it does not exist.
I pray that you will see and receive before it is too late.
God Bless you all
Christdied4u
4th3157 said
In reply to christdied4u:
“a £20 donation will sponsor a mere fraction of a letter. For almost 10 years, I have lived in places where that same money could feed a family for a month. This campaign could feed 416 families for an entire year and probably even more than that. If this is the act of a humanist movement then I fail to see the logic in it.”
And just look at how tens of millions of pounds is wasted every week by churches on social events and on the upkeep of churches. If this money was put to good use the world would be a better place.
“My criticism of the ad campaign is simply this. It does not fall inline with the definition of an atheist. This ad falls into the definition of an agnostic perhaps. But an atheist?…No.”
You clealy don’t understand the definition of an atheist. Agnosticism is about knowledge, not theistic belief. It’s possible to be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic christian. If you don’t belive in god then you are atheist, it’s as simple as that.
“But at the end of the day, it comes to this. He is either who He says He is, or He is a liar or He is a lunatic. ”
Or the other option is that people made up and embelleshed stories about him, which we know for a fact is the case.
“I believed in evolution. Where on earth is the link between apes and humans? Otherwise, known as the missing link. It doesn’t exist. And yet, many fix their belief based on this. That is blind faith.”
The link between ancient apes and humans is clear in the fossil record.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html
“Good works and good deeds which are to be admired will not put you in right standing with God Almighty. ”
So doing good things is pointless, all god needs is for you to hold a particular belief. If humans tortured people because of their religion they would be called racist, yet for god it’s ok.
“Evil came into this world and for now it remains.”
It’s god’s fault for creating things that he knew would do evil.
“But there is only one way. Jesus was sent to this world to restore our relationship with God. He lived the perfect life. He paid the price.”
Except he didnt pay the price. The price is eternal damnation in hell, yet Jesus isn’t in hell so nothing has been paid.
“I can not see the air around me but that does not mean it does not exist. ”
We can reliably detect it in other ways.
For god, there is no such possibility.
christdied4u said
To 4th3157
My church spends money on the upkeep of the building naturally and the two it employs on staff. Other positions in the church are filled on a volunteer basis. The rest of the money is given away to charity both locally and overseas. We fund secular projects within the local community and the accounts are available for all to see. What is spent on the building and staff is necessary but much, much less than what is being given away. We are certainly not splashing it out on for our own social needs. Now add that up across the country and you will see that millions are equally to where it’s needed most.
The definition in the dictionary states an atheist does not believe in God.
Something I posted way earlier and in reply has been evaded. You have been one of the very few to admit this. Thank you. At last.
THE ADDITION CONSPIRACY
The notion of embelleshing the stories of the gospels has been around before.
While it is tempting and convenient that much was added to the gospels concerning the teachings and deeds of Jesus, this is a terribly complex view to hold and defend. To begin with, you have to come up with a motive.
After Jesus died, it would have been much easier (and less risky) to simply spread his teachings like the disciples of every other religious figure who has come and gone. Jesus was a Jew, as were most of his early followers. Clearly, he wasn’t attempting to begin a new religion. In fact he emphasised and defended the teachings of the Old Testiment. Remove his unique claims and all of his miracles from the story, and what you have left is an effort to reform Judaism. There was no need to deify him or claim he was a miracle worker.
There is no compelling reason to add to what Jesus taught. In fact, his unique claims (purportedly added after his death) make his teaching offensive and difficult to accept. For example, if Jesus never claimed to be the only avenue to God, why would his followers add that when such a statement could discredit everything else he had taught? This is precisely why many in the academic community today refuse to acknowledge that Jesus claimed to be God. They desperately want to hold on to the ‘acceptable’ elements of what he taught, but that nobody-gets-to-the-Father-except-through-me-business is problematic. So it is more convenient to believe that he never said it. And that’s just my point. Why would anyone add things to what Jesus said if what was added subtracts from the believability of the message. It just doesn’t make any sense.
Another problem with believing that someone added to the story is that all four accounts of Jesus’ life – the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John – were written and disseminated into the region where these unusual occurrences took place at a time when eyewitnesses were still around to dispute their claims. If we had but one account of Jesus’ life, that might cast suspicion on the miracle stories and his claims of divinity. However, we have not one, but four accounts written by four different individuals. Matthew and John were eye witnesses. Luke interviewed eyewitnesses. And Mark spent extensive time with Peter, one of Jesus’ closest friends.
Is it possible that these four guys got together and made all this stuff up? Sure. But read the gospels for yourself. Their stories are so different that, clearly, they didn’t sit down in a room and compare notes. In fact, no one in the academic community has ever tried to make a case for collusion. Ask any two people who observed the same event to tell you their stories – they will not give identical accounts, although there will be general agreement about what happened with an emphasis on different details. That is exactly what we find in the four gospels.
THE FOSSIL RECORD
I read the link you so kindly posted below. Thank you.
The link between ancient apes and humans is clear in the fossil record.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html
The supposed transitional forms simply don’t exist except in the imagination of evolutionists who want to justify their theory. For instance the amazing discovery of Lucy….nearly all experts agree that Lucy was a 3ft tall chimpanzee.
Nabraska Man….they created an entire skeleton with arms legs, feet, hands and even facial features when all they really had was one tooth. Which later was found to be the tooth of an extinct pig.
Piltdown Man….the jawbone turned out to be a modern ape.
Neanderthal Man….whose famous skeleton found in France over 50 years ago was that of an old man who suffered from arthritis. Hardly scientific proof.
The famous Harvard evolutionary biologist Stephen J Gould (1941-2002) stated this about the fossil record…’The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of palientology.
Apes are not a less evolved relative of us…they are another species.
Ladies, listen to what Darwin wrote about you ‘ The chief distinction in the intellectual powers of the two sexes is shewn by man attaining to a higher eminence in whatever he takes up, than woman can attain whether requiring deep thought, reason, or imagination, or merely the use of the senses and hands.
He’s saying that man has evolved to a higher eminence over women in basically anything he decides to do.
Darwinian evolution at it’s core is not only male chauvinistic but it’s also very racist. Darwin wants us to believe that black people are less evolved than whites.
Sir Arthur Keith who wrote the forward introduction to Origin of Species 100th anniversary edition wrote this:
‘Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation and that is unthinkable.
Malcom Muggeridge wrote ‘I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it has been applied will be one of the great jokes in history books of the future’.
A wise man once said that man will believe anything as long as it’s not in the bible. Unfortunately, that is mostly true.
Lone Wolf said
christdied4u: The only people who say atheism is the belief that there is no god are people like you. Atheists define atheism as a lack of belief in a god or gods. Agnosticism is not a middle ground, agnosticism means “with out knowledge” and thats what its about, knowledge, it is the belief that you can not know if a god or gods exist or not. Its it not a middle ground and atheism and agnosticism or theism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive.
As what your supposed quote from Dawkins, look up the words “quote mine”
As for your copyed and pasted Kent Hovind ********, thats been debunked countless times and if you where interested in the truth (real “truth” as in factual, not the the absurd use many theists use) you would actually know that.
http://wolfsden.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/a-guide-for-theists-on-how-to-debate-atheists/
christdied4u said
Lone Wolf
This is the definition of atheism according to the online dictionary
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism
a⋅the⋅ism
/ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Origin:
1580–90; < Gk áthe(os) godless + -ism
And yes I have copied and pasted this.
And no I did not copy and paste whoever he was, as I had never heard of him.
Thanks for the info.
Lone Wolf said
There should be a fallacy called “dictionary fallacy” but I guess argument from authority works.
Dictionary’s do not define words, they define usages and they are not perfect. Ask any atheist and you’ll get the same answer “atheism is the lack of belief in a god or gods” “an atheist is one who does not believe in god or gods” “some one who does not believe that god exists”
And yes those are the same answer, just worded differently.
You say you didn’t copy and past your Hovonisms but they are the exact same arguments Hovond and other creationist lier’s feed there flock of castrated sheep. If you spend 15 minutes looking any of that up you would see that they are all lies.
4th3157 said
There are different ‘types’ of atheism.
A ’strong’ atheist is someone who believes that there is no god. A ‘weak’ atheist doesn’t believe there is a god. The latter can be said to be an agnostic atheist.
The authors of the gospels, and those who copied them, had many reasons to embellish the stories and it is a matter of historical fact that they did so because as newer copies of the gospels appear, we clearly see new additions and changes to the stories.
The best example of this is the story of the resurrection. Get hold of your bible and read each of the accounts of the resurrection and make notes of the details of each one. E.g. who went to the tomb, when and what they saw and what they did afterwards. They are all different and contradictory. It’s a shame for christians that the most important part of the Jesus myth is documented so very very poorly by the bible itself.
Lucy was not a chimpanzee. Lucy had a skeleton that clearly showed it walked upright on two legs. Chimpanzees have different skeletons. Lucy is a perfect example of what is expected in the evolution of humans.
There are many different skeletons of neanderthals and they are scientific proof that there was more then one human species alive at the same time.
Piltdown man was exposed by evolutionary scientists as a hoax.
Nebraska man was exposed by evolutionary scientists as mistaken identification.
There are dozens of other human ancestor species which you ignore. Each of which show intermediate stages of evolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ2WoHFc7eE
http://anthropologynet.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/fossil-hominid-skulls.jpg
Ape is not a species, it’s a superfamily, and humans are classed as apes because they are part of this taxonomic group.
Evolution is neither male chauvinistic nor racist. Darwin himself hated slavery in a time when most other christians were in favor of it.
Evolution is a scientific fact. It’s an observed fact too, and it is the foundation for modern biology.
We have brilliant examples of evolution, if you’d only care to look at them, such as the evolution of reptiles into mammals and the evolution of fish into amphibians.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=fossil-reveals-ear-evolution-in-action
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_mammals
We also have amazing feathered dinosaurs. What more of a transition could you ask for?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaurs
http://www.dinosaur-world.com/feathered_dinosaurs/thumbs/feathered_dinosaurs2_low-rez-full-size.jpg
lurkalot said
I have given up arguing with Christdied4u, the stupidity of his arguments and continued self righteous attitude was driving me crazy. I guess us rational thinkers just have to accept there will always be people that refuse to open their minds to the evidence all around them, forget the fossil record, just look at genetics, if god was such a perfect creator why did he insert DNA for plants, amphibians, primates etc into our genome? why bother with the coccyx or appendix? the evidence for evolution is beyond doubt unless you close your eyes, put your fingers in your ears and shout “la la la, not listening”.
The attitude that religion is a force for good can only be believed if you ignore the thousands of children sexually abused by the priesthood, then covered up by the church thus allowing the crimes to continue and more and more children have their lives ruined. What about the girls genitaly mutilated in the name of Islam, or the thousands persecuted for their religion by other religious peoples. Christians constantly say “God is love” with one breath and then with next add “but you better believe in him or he will make you burn in hell”. Which is it? love or fear that drives religion? This is especially potent when used to indoctrinate children, in my opinion a form of abuse that should be stopped as soon as possible.
I am sure Christdied4u is a jolly nice chap on the whole and is generally well meaning but that has nothing to do with god or faith, good people are good people regardless of faith and likewise bad people come in all guises, both religious and atheist. But to deny the beauty of evolution simply because of a few words in a 2000 year old work of fiction is quite frankly moronic.
I don’t like to be insulting but it seems to me the old adage that “when an atheist converts to a religion the average IQ of both groups goes up” holds true.
“I think therefore I am an Atheist”
jlsal5 said
What’s all this huffing and puffing about? What are you afraid of? Is it that there probably is a God and you wish you could stop worrying about it and enjoy yourselves as Christians and people with other religious beliefs do?
4th3157 said
Some more things for christdied4u to think about.
1. Human chromosome number 2 is direct genetic evidence that we share a common genetic ancestor with chimpanzees. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, chimps have 1 more pair. One the face of it this makes it look like they don’t share a common ancestor, however, evolution make a very important and accurate prediction: if we share a common ancestor then somewhere in history a chromosome must have fused with another one. That’s exactly what we find. This cannot be explained by intelligent design because chromosomes have special markers at the ends and in the centre and this contradicts intelligent design.
http://godbegone.blogspot.com/2007/09/how-chimp-chromosome-2-proves-evolution.html
2. Read Deuteronomy 22:28-29 and tell me why I should believe that the bible is the divine word of god when is dictates that rape victims must be forced to marry their rapists.
christdied4u said
This is becoming a futile conversation and I will at least agree to disagree. I for one have not been arguing. But if I have offended or upset any of you then please forgive me.
I leave you with this:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16
4th3157 said
Sorry to see that you’ve admitted defeat, christdied4u, but I guess that was inevitable given the glaring facts mounted against you.
“If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.” Deuteronomy 22:28-29
“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.” Luke 6:27-30
I hope that you, christdied4u, truly believe this passage because I now ask you to give me all your money and high-value assets and continue to give them to me as you acquire them throughout the rest of your life.
Atheist Bus rides again « The Justgiving Blog said
[...] The Atheist Bus Campaign has caused a real stir and it’s been really exciting to see the debate that’s been happening in your comments here on the blog, not to mention on the page itself. [...]
Online fundraising lessons to be learnt from the Atheist Bus campaign « The Justgiving Blog said
[...] a global fundraising phenomenon? Whatever you may think about the appeal (and as we’ve said before, we are impartial), the atheist bus campaign has been an amazing example of how appeals and [...]
Jemima Jenkins said
It’s wonderful: all that money and rather than donate to some lovely humanitarian cause, we burn it on a campaign to blow raspberries at the theists. Damn, we’re humane. (*Waves at Gaza: sorry, chaps …*)
JustGiving - Raise money for charity online said
[...] The Atheist Bus Campaign has caused a real stir and it’s been really exciting to see the debate that’s been happening in your comments here on the blog, not to mention on the page itself. [...]
Bill Bartmann said
Excellent site, keep up the good work